In case you didn’t read my first post broaching a conversation about Women + Age + Sexuality, you might want to pop back here to catch up.
Several weeks ago, when I finally resolved to go ahead with whatever this little series on sexuality “at our age” (however we might define that, here on the blog, whoever “we” are) I thought of long-time reader and commenter Georgia’s enthusiastic encouragement when I first broached the idea. And since she’d once agreed to write a post here back when some of us were reading Elena Ferrante’s Naples series together, I thought perhaps she could contribute some thoughts to help me shape a space with room to move around a bit.
Here’s our email exchange: I’m in blue italics; Georgia’s in an appropriately vibrant red. I hope you find her words as lively and provocative and playful and thoughtful as I did. And I also hope some of you will leave comments that further our conversation — and that respect Georgia’s willingness to share her perspective. I know that many of you will feel uncomfortable expressing your thoughts or feelings on the topic in writing, online, even anonymously. Perfectly understandable. And you can be reassured that the next post is likely going to be a wander around Paris in October sunshine. . . But meanwhile, I’m happy that we’ve got this far in our evolving conversation, at least. Should there be interest in subsequent posts, I’ve got a few topics in mind, the first — on the differences made by our cultural contexts — inspired by a conversation I had with a friend here in Paris.
Since I’m travelling, it may take longer for me to approve the comments for publication here, but I’ll get them online as soon as I can and then I’ll probably leave Georgia to answer some of them but step in to facilitate or respond as seems appropriate.
Hi Georgia,
As you might have guessed, I’ve been busy and stalling a bit about writing that post on Sexuality in the Golden Years (I will do my best to find a better title eventually). But with this month of travel quickly approaching, I’d like to get it posted in the next two weeks — and I wondered if you would once again care to contribute some writing / thinking to the blog. A paragraph or two or three would be great, and they wouldn’t need to be particularly personal; perhaps you could write about issues or topics that tend to get overlooked, or questions you might have for the small community that tends to gather here.
Of course you can say No if you’d like, and in that case, I’ll look forward to you adding to the conversation via a comment or two. But even just writing this brief note to you has me ready to write an opening paragraph or two. . .
So thanks for being out there, eating Glory Bowls for lunch and reading Italian and offering companionship in thinking about the prickly and the fun stuff.
All the best,
Frances
And her reply, 19 minutes later 😉
Gladly! I’m heading into an appointment but wanted to reply asap so you wouldn’t think I was reluctant. I’ll talk to you soon!
Great! Thanks! I’ll look forward to hearing back from you when you have time.
Hello again!
Oh what a great day I’ve had thinking about all this. In the end I just sat and ‘talked’ it out as below, trying to write it as I would say it, but not probably as frankly as I would say it, I tried to choose my words. The first couple of paragraphs are a sort of preamble that got me started and set my framework but you may be including a lot of that so delete it if you want to (of course, edit it all in any way you see fit!).
It’s hard to narrow this down isn’t it? I’ve reread your original post, and the comments (including mine…both of them! Clearly I’m into this.) Went back to a few other blogs that had discussions that interested me. So much of this is entwined with body image: our image of ourselves to ourselves, in a partner or potential partner’s eyes, and the most damaging I think (because it removes the chance of any kind of response, or reassurance, or reconciliation with the ‘ravages’ of time) our image as ‘older’ women in the eyes of…the world? youth? social media? And then the idea that pre/concurrent with/post menopause the libido vanishes, or other physical changes happen that take sexual satisfaction out of the picture. There’s invisibility, too. (I am going to ignore ‘sex is a tool of the patriarchy’. I almost burst into flames just typing that. And the strange re-prudification (?) that has taken hold. Those are not specific to an age group.)
I recognize these things are true for many people. My problem (and I do have one, ha!) is…not for everyone. That’s the problem of a stereotype. It’s never everyone. And the story that gets told, told the loudest, is the one that becomes accepted. But it is not my story. Frances, you said it doesn’t have to be personal, but it is, because that’s the only true story I have. It’s just the last couple of years, and it’s funny, and it delights me AND it delights my daughter who likes to think this is what her future may hold.
I said this back in June: ‘I never see the story of a woman who, at age 61, woke up one morning with the libido of a teenage boy’. A bit of history: I have always been very comfortable sexually. My daughter calls this ‘having the animal in you.’ My antics in this area started when I was eight, I think, playing doctor with a neighbour boy, and I still remember how surprised I was at how good that felt. And naked in bed with my best friend aged maybe 11, wiggling and giggling under the sheets, how nice to be in a bed with no clothes on! And so it continued…I could have been led by it, I did make some questionable decisions, I stood at the edge of abandoning all reason more than once, but stepped back. I should say I have never felt powerless, it was me that took myself on these jaunts. I was married for quite a few years and have children; that relationship was very complicated and in the end sad but there are many, many wonderful sexy memories. But I am single now.I was living fairly quietly five years post-retirement until 2020 arrived. There I was, alone with my cat…I am an introvert but it was the YOU CAN’T versus the I DON’T WANT TO that just…created a sort of energy…I felt very restless…until one day I woke up, sat on the side of the bed, and said ‘wait, what’s this?’ It was my libido, the animal, sitting beside me, bouncing a little, smiling, and saying ‘I want to spend more time with you, baby’. It’s still here! It has not waned one bit. I have learned to manage it, let’s say. But…
…I think, sometimes, people can tell. You meet someone’s eyes and just grin at each other, in passing. Recognizing a kindred spirit, not necessarily a potential partner. So, not invisible. no.
This could end any time. But I do like the idea of looking back and thinking ah, I remember those early senior years of walking around in an almost constant state of semi-arousal…
(I’ll press send now; if any brainstorms come I’ll let you know 🙂 I hope you enjoy reading about my ‘struggles’!)
Hi Georgia,
This is just great! It’s a different story from mine, which is exactly what I think is needed to broaden the discussion (and also, I’m much more constrained in what I will see because my name is on the blog and too much of the story of my sexuality can’t be shared without discomfiting some important people close to me 😉 Purtroppo . . .
That said, how would you like me to refer to you when I introduce your words. “Georgia”? “A regular reader and commenter”? And can I link to the post you wrote for me about Ferrante’s The Lost Daughter a few years ago?
Okay, now it’s up to me to write an introduction and a few thoughts of my own on the topic and see if we might coax a few other voices to speak up. I’m going to do my best to suggest a few possibilities for us to consider and I think I’ll be asking for recommendations of books or TV shows or movies or music, art, etc. as well. Less than three weeks now until I leave for a month, so I’d better get cracking.
Oh, and have you ever read Jane Juska’s A Round-Heeled Woman: My Late-Life Adventures in Sex and Romance. I’m picking up a copy of it from our library to have a quick skim — approaching 70, single for some years, decided she wanted to experience sex and romance again so placed an ad in the Personals. I remember reading a review of it years ago, never have got ‘round to reading it, but thought it could add something to our potential discussion.
Gorgeous weather here on the Coast again today (although salmon are dying by the hundreds in dried-up streams several hundred kilometres north). Going to get out of my pyjamas soon (it’s 10:30, yikes! And I’ve been up since pre-dawn🤷♀️) and out into the sunshine. Hope you have some there as well.
Con sorriso,
f
Hi Frances,
First, and funniest, my copy of Round-Heeled is ready for pick-up now…they hadn’t notified me yet but I went and peeked when you reminded me. While I was reserving it I saw another Juska ‘Unaccompanied Women: Late-Life Adventures in Love, Sex and Real Estate’. That one’s still in transit so hopefully I’ll pick them both up in a day or two. A skim as you say. I’m back in Italian class (after 12 years, ugh) and have another class ‘Suburbia in Film’ starting next week so I have a couple of movies to watch for that. In any case it will be fun to compare notes when the monthly reading discussion comes.
Absolutely put my name on it! And link to that other post by all means, they do fit together. I like the idea of movie, book, art etc recommendations from the readers. I’m pretty sure it was feeding my head that way that got me into this pickle!
I saw the salmon on the news. We need to just stop and do an about face but the chance seems so slim. It is NOT sunny here and is only 3C…the first real chilly autumn day. Something was odd this morning when I looked out the window…the roofs across the street were white. Only for a short time, I heard it raining in the night but I guess it was a rain/snow mix. Here we go. I might go outside and rake a bit, just for fresh air 🙂
g (ps. I made a New Year’s resolution two years ago to be dressed by 9 am…and I have done it! Keep the bar low, right?)
Hey! I was dressed! Dressed in my pjs 😉
Problem is that I’ve found my pyjamas (from Uniqlo [Edited to correct: they’re actually from Muji], two tissue-light layers of cotton — lawn? Voile? Organza? — caught together every quarter inch in a pattern of Swiss dots or gingham, I love them unduly and inordinately) work well for yoga and depending how long I put off doing my breakfast in favour of finishing some chapter or task or other, the mat doesn’t get unrolled until 10-ish and then . . .
Wearing a dress now, even easier than pjs 😉 And it’s a last-bit-of-summer dress so I’m considering myself very lucky in light of your frosty roofs.
Ha! Great minds thinking alike on the Juska book. Hope it’s worth the skim but at the very least it’s a sign that others tread this path. . .
Will do re putting your name. Post should show up sometime after Thanksgiving.
f
So there you have it, readers. The series continues. . . Just waiting for you to chime in now.
Yours,
from Paris
xo,
f
I’ll have to read these books!
This is actually comment on the both “age” posts
I was thinking about your island birthday lunch story…..maybe the birthday girls (or only the one in question) were intimidated by you three , a lot younger….and wanted a little bit to brag….maybe I’m wrong but I noticed this pattern a couple of times (although I knew the truth through my occupation-and it was opposite–but I’ve kept quiet, naturally )
It is not the theme(now it is!),but it is connected in a way: this year, I was at the seaside in September and the population on the beach was much older than during the high season. I’ve noticed that the ladies (no matter if they were with a partner or alone) seem much more confident , more “bien dans sa peau”,more visible – maybe it was because they (us) were without much younger women to be compared with,maybe not (perhaps having holidays in September is only more relaxing :))
Georgia, IMO,one has to have hot blood to survive in your climate :).
We had 22°C yesterday (crazy,I know)
I like this mailing kind of a post (and
I’m sorry for the salmon)
Dottoressa
The salmon…it rained yesterday or the day prior which was a great relief for the BC area and the salmon were shown again on the news. I live about 2400 km from Frances so you can see this is important for us all across Canada.
Bien dans sa peau is part of the theme, I think so too, because if you feel that it goes all the way through you. That is what I would wish for everyone.
G
Author
Thanks Dottoressa, Interesting to think about that older / younger angle. I think it’s hard not to compare (and to remember, wistfully perhaps, what we once were like). Maybe we need some beaches of our own! 😉 The September beaches!
I’m glad you like the email format — it was fun to put together.
At 67 I am still living under the taboo of not talking about this and related topics but I feel a tinge of liberation and boldness bubbling to the surface. Onward we go!
Author
Brava, Cheryl! There are good reasons for being discreet on the topic and context is all, but it can be healthier and happier sometimes to be able to express and inform ourselves. xo
I like the “bien dans sa peau” expression. I am one of three old women who have just formed an advocacy group to get things moving on childcare issues. When I referred to us as three old women, a young man asked me if it was pc to say we were three old women. My reply to him was we are three old women. We have background, expertise, and wisdom and we want to get things done. So far we have found it to be an asset not a liability to describe ourselves as “old.” We know of what we speak! I think once women stop apologizing for being old, it flows into all areas of their lives, including their sexuality.
Author
Good for you, Sarah! I’ve begun to appropriate the term “old woman” for myself on occasion as well — and claim my age as a positive attribute. I like your last sentence very much.
I am very interested in reading these books. I am 81 and would love to have a loving, physical and yes, sexual relationship with a man. I miss tenderness and someone who “has your back”. It is probably too late. here is a story from my recent experience. elements of disapointment and maybe a bit of hope. several months back a couple I know, close friends, invited me and another single woman along with two male friends of theirs, widowers of a few years to join them for drinks and a bite to eat at a local pub. I had met them both briefly before. we are all in our 80.s. were they matchmaking, not sure? both men are intelligent, we all had stimulating conversation and it was pleasant evening. in any case, a few weeks ago my friend informs me that one of the men had died, rather unexpectedly. the other is dating a women I also know a bit. We all belong to a educational and recreational group for retired people. this women is our age as well, they seem to be a couple and enjoy each others company. so it is possible, even at this stage in life.
Author
How thoughtful of your friends to set up an evening like that, no particular pressure but a chance to socialize in mixed company with the frisson of possibility. And the two trajectories you trace from that evening! The reality of what could happen — always could, of course, but mortality looms more closely now, no denying it. Yet the newly dating couple are showing that life can be enriched, even in mortality’s shadow. Even at this stage, as you say. Thanks for sharing this!
Oh Georgia, I absolutely loved your story. I am smiling broadly at the idea of you passing someone on the street and you both making eye contact and grinning. Now there is a twinkle in one’s eyes. I enjoyed your frankness and your honesty. I think that you should publish this as an essay. So many women would appreciate it.
No book recommendations come to mind immediately, but I will come back and comment if I think of any. I agree with the person who commented on the last post about Last Tango in Halifax being a good TV series (especially the early episodes). The portrayal of an older couple meeting and being attracted to each other is very appealing. I am looking forward to seeing the Emma Thompson movie, Good Luck to You, Leo Grande. I don’t go to the theaters, because of Covid and last I checked, I didn’t find it available online yet.
I read Cup of Jo, which is mostly a younger crowd. The subject of sex comes up from time to time and people speak quite frankly about it. It feels honest and supportive. Here’s an example of a post on the subject: https://cupofjo.com/2022/09/29/the-tv-sex-scene-that-made-me-applaud/. Even though the readers tend to be younger, there are older women among the blog’s followers. (Needless to say, that weekend I looked through our television services to see if we had the service that included the series being written about. We didn’t have it.)
I am interested in seeing where we go with this.
Thank you so much Dottie. I wish younger women understood this possibility, most of all.
Author
I’m so glad you mentioned Cup of Jo because I, too, admire the kind of conversations that can happen there! Perhaps we can learn from those younger generations. . .
Listening
Author
Aw, thanks so much, Susan, for letting us know you’re here for this!
Days have passed and, thanks to an appalling head cold that is still forcing me to sit still and think a lot, I have been considering the first post in some detail. In essence, I would say that what troubles me about female sexuality (at any age) is the way it is culturally man-handled (literally, metaphorically) for the convenience of society. How to behave, how to take responsibility for outcomes, what one may express, what is unacceptable. I remember very well my astonishment and anger as I became a teenager at the blanket of societal expectation that felt like it was smothering me. And the way it has been monetised so women spend huge amounts of cash on promoting a sex-positive aspect – the amount of bloody gadgetry! In an old-fashioned way, I get tired of it all, the relentless revelations and the deadly seriousness. I feel like Whistler’s Mother (but with more handkerchiefs at present). Keep talking because I like reading the views of other women. Of a certain age.
Author
Yes! I find that so very troubling as well, Annie. Since adolescence, and it seems to continue!
In fact, I was just alerted to a post on another blog aimed at post-50 women, one I don’t follow myself — but the post recommended that women be bolder in letting men know what it is they want in bed. In many ways, this is clearly a sex-positive attitude, the openness laudable, but I couldn’t help but feel it was one more thing we should do. (Also, even though I’m heterosexual, longtime married, etc., and yes, sometimes do tell him what I want, I was irritated at what seemed to be an automatic exclusion of lesbian women in that post. So far, admittedly, that’s the way this conversation has been trending as well, but I hope to budge that a bit as we get more comfortable. . .
Another heterosexual woman of 71 here, but one of a different background. My first husband who I married far too young at age 20 was emotionally abusive. We never had a normal sex life however that could be defined so I always felt ashamed of my body and sexuality. I envied other women who looked at home in their bodies and felt free to flirt – I just wanted to be invisible. The odd thing was that I did not think my situation was unusual. My southern mother and grandmother never talked about sex at all nor did they model any type of sexual behavior. After 15 years we divorced and several years later I married a loving man who has spent years gently coaxing me into the sunlight with the help of a therapist. It’s still a work in progress, and I envy Georgia more than I can say.
Author
Thanks so much for sharing this, Lynn. A moving and hopeful account, and I’m so pleased you found your way to sunlight.
I’ve tried to think of how I could amplify the comments I made on the earlier post on this subject but haven’t come up with much that wouldn’t breach my partner’s trust.
In general terms, I dislike it when the sexuality of older women is reduced to a joke in popular culture and I resent a growing feeling of invisibility. I also miss having girlfriends that I can talk to about such deeply personal matters. It’s good to know that I’m not alone and literature provides solace for this, as well as many other difficult parts of life. Lastly, I haven’t had much luck accessing advice from doctors about sexual matters in recent years. Understandably, the pandemic has sapped their energies and steered their focus to other things.
Author
Thanks Maria. I think it’s reasonable in any conversation that we have times we want to speak up and other times just to listen and others when we leave the room for a break. 😉 And there are good reasons just to stay silent at certain points, a partner’s confidence being an important one. I appreciate you adding the point about doctors and advice re sex post-menopausal and beyond. It used to be important for many of us to find a female doctor, but I’m now aware of a gap between myself and the younger female doctors I see. Particularly when dealing with a UTI I’ve felt reduced to a caricature of Post-Menopausal Woman, and I’ve occasionally been quite deliberate about trying to break up that image with a bit of humour. More than ever, I see a certain urgency in having my physician see me as Human and Individual 😉 More on this later, I think.
I have kept on the sidelines in this discussion because I felt there was not much I could contribute. I have been a single woman for many years now, I have a number of wonderful friends, there is love, trust and tenderness between us, but no sex, and I do not miss it at all. But while following the conversation you started and thinking about the time that is runnung out (with another summer gone by) I realized that there are other things which I do miss and that I should give some thought to them and get my priorities straight. So thank you for that.
Author
Eleonore, I think this is an important contribution right here: “no sex, and I do not miss it at all.” I suspect you speak for many and I think this is important to acknowledge at a time when the media is jumping in (finally) to present Senior Sexuality most often in the form of Jane Fonda and Helen Mirren, for example, still keenly sexual and finding younger and very keen partners. Again, more on this later, I hope. . . but important to know that our sexual diversity in our community can include being happily asexual.
Also, I really appreciate your attention to the “other things” you miss — because I think that any conversation on Women and Age and Sex(uality) has to be shadowed by Mortality. . . which does offer the benefit of pushing us to get our priorities straight. And somehow this ties right back, for me, to the Dottoressa’s earlier comment on feeling “Bien dans Notre Peau”
Yes, Dottoressa’s remark resonated with me, too. I feel that old age has freed me from certain expectations of people around me. I even sometimes explicitly claim that freedom as prerogative of an “old woman”. But it does come with a price…
I can’t think of anything to contribute to this conversation, but like Susan L, I’m listening and interested.
Author
I appreciate you taking the time to record your interest, Wendy! Thanks!
I am following this as it’s a topic I have been mulling over for quite some time. The word “sexy” features in both my book and my blog – but lately, I’ve been wondering what that means as I/we age, our bodies shift around a bit, we deal with chronic illness, the plusses and minuses of menopause, or any combination of these? I’ve always known that my sexuality/sensuality stemmed from being comfortable in my skin, how could it not – but what to do when one is not comfortable there anymore? I’m resistant to changing the blog title – because I know that spark is still buried in me, somewhere. Anyway – these are topics I wanted to touch on in my blog, but couldn’t bring myself to broach them… so glad you’ve brought it up! I look forward to tagging along, learning and growing. Thank you for leading the way! XO